Cleinias:  But what is the fact?

Athenian:  Just the opposite, as I said, of the opinion which once prevailed among men, that the sun and stars are without soul.  Even in those days men wondered about them, and that which is now ascertained was then conjectured by some who had a more exact knowledge of them—­that if they had been things without soul, and had no mind, they could never have moved with numerical exactness so wonderful; and even at that time some ventured to hazard the conjecture that mind was the orderer of the universe.  But these same persons again mistaking the nature of the soul, which they conceived to be younger and not older than the body, once more overturned the world, or rather, I should say, themselves; for the bodies which they saw moving in heaven all appeared to be full of stones, and earth, and many other lifeless substances, and to these they assigned the causes of all things.  Such studies gave rise to much atheism and perplexity, and the poets took occasion to be abusive—­comparing the philosophers to she-dogs uttering vain howlings, and talking other nonsense of the same sort.  But now, as I said, the case is reversed.

Cleinias:  How so?

Athenian:  No man can be a true worshipper of the Gods who does not know these two principles—­that the soul is the eldest of all things which are born, and is immortal and rules over all bodies; moreover, as I have now said several times, he who has not contemplated the mind of nature which is said to exist in the stars, and gone through the previous training, and seen the connexion of music with these things, and harmonized them all with laws and institutions, is not able to give a reason of such things as have a reason.  And he who is unable to acquire this in addition to the ordinary virtues of a citizen, can hardly be a good ruler of a whole state; but he should be the subordinate of other rulers.  Wherefore, Cleinias and Megillus, let us consider whether we may not add to all the other laws which we have discussed this further one—­that the nocturnal assembly of the magistrates, which has also shared in the whole scheme of education proposed by us, shall be a guard set according to law for the salvation of the state.  Shall we propose this?

Cleinias:  Certainly, my good friend, we will if the thing is in any degree possible.

Athenian:  Let us make a common effort to gain such an object; for I too will gladly share in the attempt.  Of these matters I have had much experience, and have often considered them, and I dare say that I shall be able to find others who will also help.

Cleinias:  I agree, Stranger, that we should proceed along the road in which God is guiding us; and how we can proceed rightly has now to be investigated and explained.

Athenian:  O Megillus and Cleinias, about these matters we cannot legislate further until the council is constituted; when that is done, then we will determine what authority they shall have of their own; but the explanation of how this is all to be ordered would only be given rightly in a long discourse.