go on and make still further havoc by separating the rhythm and the figure of the dance from the melody, setting bare words to metre, and also separating the melody and the rhythm from the words, using the lyre or the flute alone.  For when there are no words, it is very difficult to recognize the meaning of the harmony and rhythm, or to see that any worthy object is imitated by them.  And we must acknowledge that all this sort of thing, which aims only at swiftness and smoothness and a brutish noise, and uses the flute and the lyre not as the mere accompaniments of the dance and song, is exceedingly coarse and tasteless.  The use of either instrument, when unaccompanied, leads to every sort of irregularity and trickery.  This is all rational enough.  But we are considering not how our choristers, who are from thirty to fifty years of age, and may be over fifty, are not to use the Muses, but how they are to use them.  And the considerations which we have urged seem to show in what way these fifty years’ old choristers who are to sing, may be expected to be better trained.  For they need to have a quick perception and knowledge of harmonies and rhythms; otherwise, how can they ever know whether a melody would be rightly sung to the Dorian mode, or to the rhythm which the poet has assigned to it?

Cleinias:  Clearly they cannot.

Athenian:  The many are ridiculous in imagining that they know what is in proper harmony and rhythm, and what is not, when they can only be made to sing and step in rhythm by force; it never occurs to them that they are ignorant of what they are doing.  Now every melody is right when it has suitable harmony and rhythm, and wrong when unsuitable.

Cleinias:  That is most certain.

Athenian:  But can a man who does not know a thing, as we were saying, know that the thing is right?

Cleinias:  Impossible.

Athenian:  Then now, as would appear, we are making the discovery that our newly-appointed choristers, whom we hereby invite and, although they are their own masters, compel to sing, must be educated to such an extent as to be able to follow the steps of the rhythm and the notes of the song, that they may know the harmonies and rhythms, and be able to select what are suitable for men of their age and character to sing; and may sing them, and have innocent pleasure from their own performance, and also lead younger men to welcome with dutiful delight good dispositions.  Having such training, they will attain a more accurate knowledge than falls to the lot of the common people, or even of the poets themselves.  For the poet need not know the third point, viz., whether the imitation is good or not, though he can hardly help knowing the laws of melody and rhythm.  But the aged chorus must know all the three, that they may choose the best, and that which is nearest to the best; for otherwise they will never be able to