Cleinias:  It will be by a singular good fortune that he is saved.

Athenian:  Now suppose such associations to be framed in the best way possible in states, and that some one blames the very fact of their existence—­he may very likely be right.  But if he blames a practice which he only sees very much mismanaged, he shows in the first place that he is not aware of the mismanagement, and also not aware that everything done in this way will turn out to be wrong, because done without the superintendence of a sober ruler.  Do you not see that a drunken pilot or a drunken ruler of any sort will ruin ship, chariot, army—­anything, in short, of which he has the direction?

Cleinias:  The last remark is very true, Stranger; and I see quite clearly the advantage of an army having a good leader—­he will give victory in war to his followers, which is a very great advantage; and so of other things.  But I do not see any similar advantage which either individuals or states gain from the good management of a feast; and I want you to tell me what great good will be effected, supposing that this drinking ordinance is duly established.

Athenian:  If you mean to ask what great good accrues to the state from the right training of a single youth, or of a single chorus—­when the question is put in that form, we cannot deny that the good is not very great in any particular instance.  But if you ask what is the good of education in general, the answer is easy—­that education makes good men, and that good men act nobly, and conquer their enemies in battle, because they are good.  Education certainly gives victory, although victory sometimes produces forgetfulness of education; for many have grown insolent from victory in war, and this insolence has engendered in them innumerable evils; and many a victory has been and will be suicidal to the victors; but education is never suicidal.

Cleinias:  You seem to imply, my friend, that convivial meetings, when rightly ordered, are an important element of education.

Athenian:  Certainly I do.

Cleinias:  And can you show that what you have been saying is true?

Athenian:  To be absolutely sure of the truth of matters concerning which there are many opinions, is an attribute of the Gods not given to man, Stranger; but I shall be very happy to tell you what I think, especially as we are now proposing to enter on a discussion concerning laws and constitutions.

Cleinias:  Your opinion, Stranger, about the questions which are now being raised, is precisely what we want to hear.

Athenian:  Very good; I will try to find a way of explaining my meaning, and you shall try to have the gift of understanding me.  But first let me make an apology.  The Athenian citizen is reputed among all the Hellenes to be a great talker, whereas Sparta is renowned for brevity, and the Cretans have more wit than words.  Now I am afraid of appearing to elicit a very long discourse out of very small materials.  For drinking indeed may appear to be a slight matter, and yet is one which cannot be rightly ordered according to nature, without correct principles of music; these are