“Eighteen women; and thirty-seven to the Penitentiary.”

“Can you state out of what number of convicts these have been in the course of a year?”

“I do not think I can; but, of course, out of many hundreds.”

“In fact, has there been only one regular removal within the last year?”

“But one.  There is one very important thing which ought to be stated on the subject of women taking care of women.  It has been said that there were three things which were requisite in forming a prison that would really tend to the reformation of the women; but there is a fourth, viz:  that women should be taken care of entirely by women, and have no male attendants, unless it be a medical man or any minister of religion.  For I am convinced that much harm arises from the communication, not only to the women themselves, but to those who have the care of them.”

“In the present arrangement is it not so with regard to the women?”

“It is very nearly so; but if I had a prison completely such as I should like it, it would be a prison quite apart from the men’s prison, and into which neither turnkeys nor anyone else should enter but female attendants and the Inspecting Committee of Ladies, except, indeed, such gentlemen as come to look after their welfare.”

“In what does the turnkey interfere now with the prison?”

“Very little; and yet there is a certain intercourse which it is impossible for us to prevent.  And it must be where there is a prison for women and men, and there are various officers who are men in the prison; it is impossible that they should be entirely separate.  In the present state of Newgate such a plan as I have in my mind respecting the proper management of women prisoners cannot be put into execution.  We must have turnkeys and a governor to refer to; but I should like to have a prison which had nothing to do with men, except those who attended them spiritually or medically.”

“Do you believe men to be as much excluded from all communication with the women now as is possible in the present state of Newgate?”

“Yes, I think very nearly so.  My idea with regard to the employment of women is, that it should be a regular thing undertaken by Government, considering (though, perhaps, I am not the person to speak of that) that there are so many to provide for; there is the army and navy, and so many things to provide for them; why should not the Government make use of the prisoners?  But I consider it of the utmost importance, and quite indispensable for the conduct of these institutions, that the prisoners should have part of the earnings of their work for their own use; a part they might be allowed to take for tea, sugar, etc., but a part should be laid by that there maybe some provision for them when they leave the prison, without their returning to their immoral practices.  This is the case, I believe, in all prisons well regulated, both on the continent of Europe and America.