141.  Being questioned concerning the God whom they worshipped, they replied that they worshipped a God visible and invisible; a God visible under the Human Form, and an invisible God, under no form at all; and I learned from their discourse, and likewise from the ideas of their thoughts which were communicated to me, that the visible God was our Lord Himself, and they also called Him Lord.  To this it was given me to reply, that on our Earth also, an invisible and a visible God is worshipped; and that the invisible God is called the Father, and the visible, the Lord; but that both are One, as He Himself taught, saying, that no one had ever seen the form of the Father, that the Father and He are One, that whoso seeth Him seeth the Father, and that the Father is in Him and He in the Father; consequently, that both Divine [Essences] are in One Person.  That these are the words of the Lord Himself, see John v. 37; x. 30; xiv. 7, 9-11.

142.  Afterwards I saw other spirits from the same earth, who appeared in a place beneath the former:  with these also I conversed; but they were idolaters, for they worshipped an idol of stone, like a man, but an unhandsome one.  It is to be observed, that all who come into the other life, in the beginning have a worship which is like their worship in the world, but that by degrees they are removed from it.  The reason why this takes place is, that all worship remains implanted in man’s interior life, from which it cannot be removed and eradicated except by degrees.  On seeing this, it was given me to tell them that they ought not to worship what is dead, but what is living; to which they replied, that they knew that God lives, and that a stone does not, but that they thought of the living God while looking on a stone resembling a man, and that otherwise the ideas of their thought could not be fixed upon and determined to the invisible God.  It was then given me to tell them that the ideas of thought can be fixed upon and determined to the invisible God, when they are fixed upon and determined to the Lord, who is God visible in thought under the Human Form; and thus that man can be conjoined with the invisible God in thought and affection, consequently in faith and love, when he is conjoined with the Lord, but not otherwise.

143.  The spirits who were seen on high were questioned whether on their earth they live under the rule of princes or kings.  To this they replied, that they do not know what governments are, and that they live under themselves, distinguished into clans, families, and households.  They were questioned whether they were thus in security.  They said they were secure, since one family never envies another, nor desires to deprive another of anything.  They were indignant at being asked such questions, as if they had been charged with being at enmity, or with needing protection against robbers.  What, said they, does anyone need but food and raiment, and thus to live content and quiet under one’s own management?