‘You come from South Africa, do you,’ said the great man; ’a place where we have had much trouble, but mean to have no more.’

‘Trouble, however,’ I answered, ’is inseparable from Empire.  Whoever governs South Africa must meet with some trouble and difficulty, although not much when honestly faced.’

‘I assure you,’ he broke in, ’we are not going to try it again after the one fashion or the other.  We are out of it, and we mean to remain so.’

‘You astonish me,’ I answered; ’what about the Convention recently signed at Pretoria (1881)?  What about the speeches still more recently made in this country in support of it?’

’As to the Convention, I know we signed something; people often do when they are getting out of a nasty business.  We never meant to keep it, nor shall we.’

I believe I whistled a low whistle just to let off the steam, and then replied calmly, ’Will you allow me to say that by your own showing you are a bad lot, a very bad lot, as politicians.’

‘That may be, but it does not alter the fact, which is as I state.’

’Well, I am an outsider, but I assure you that the English people, should they ever know the facts, will agree with me in saying that you are a bad lot.  Such doctrines in commerce would ruin us in a day.  You know that.’

’The people are with us.  They are disgusted and heart-sore with the whole business.’

’I grant you that such is their frame of mind, but I think their attitude will be different when they come to consider the facts, and face the responsibilities of our position in South Africa.  The only difficulty with me is to communicate the truth to the public mind.’

I was much impressed by this interview.  Did this influential editor represent a large number of English people?  Were they in their own minds out of South Africa, and resolved never to return?

...  ’I do not know what you think, Mr. Mackenzie, but we are all saying here that Mr. Gladstone made a great mistake in not recalling Sir Bartle Frere at once.  In fact, we are of opinion that Frere should have been tried and hanged.’

The speaker was a fine specimen of an Englishman, tall, with a good head, intelligent and able as well as strong in speech.  He was a large manufacturer, and a local magnate.  His wife was little and gentle, and yet quite fearless of her grim-looking lord.  She begged that I would always make a deduction when her husband referred to South Africa.  He could never keep his temper on that subject, My host abruptly demanded, ‘But don’t you think that Frere should have been hanged?’

’My dear, you will frighten Mr. Mackenzie with your vehemence, and you know you do not mean it a bit.’

’Mean it!  Isn’t it what everybody is saying here?  At any rate I have given Mr. Mackenzie a text, and he must now give me his discourse.’

I then proceeded to sketch out the work which Sir Bartle Frere had had before him, its fatal element of haste, with its calamitous failures in no way chargeable to him.  ’In short, I concluded, but for the grave blunders of others you would have canonized Sir Bartle Frere instead of speaking of him as you do.  He is the ablest man you ever sent to South Africa.  As to his personal character, I do not know a finer or manlier Christian.’ ...