the interest of the debt.  I do think, however, that according to these words, we might now, as we formerly might have done, refuse to pay this interest.  We might say to Russia:  ’You have permitted these words to be inserted—­they were inserted with your sanction; and, as they were inserted with your sanction, we will take advantage of these words, and we will refuse any longer to pay the sum.’  That would be conformable to one interpretation of the treaty.  Those whom we consulted, who were the highest authorities that we could consult with regard to the interpretation of Acts of Parliament bearing upon treaties—­the legal authorities who are usually consulted on those subjects—­have told us, that they think, according to the spirit of the arrangement, according to the spirit of the convention, the money ought still to be paid.  It is at most, state it as favourably as you can for the hon. gentleman’s motion, a doubtful point, upon which, if you wish to take advantage, you might claim that advantage from words inserted in the convention.  According to my opinion, you would be acting against the spirit of the treaty in order to take advantage of a plea which, I think, in a court of law, might perhaps be urged in order to get rid of a contract, but which as between nations, ought not to be used.  I think, in so considering this question, we should lower our position.  I think we should deprive ourselves of that advantage which we now have if we were to reduce this to a transaction of pounds, shillings, and pence.  I consider that in late transactions in Europe, although, on more than one occasion, and by different Powers, our wishes have not been complied with, our desires have not been listened to, our protests may have been disregarded, yet there does remain with us a moral strength nothing can take away.  There is no treaty the stipulations of which it can be imputed to England that she has violated, evaded, or set at naught.  We are ready, in the face of Europe, however inconvenient some of those stipulations may be, to hold ourselves bound, by all our engagements, to keep the fame, and the name, and the honour of the Crown of England unsullied, and to guard that unsullied honour as a jewel which we will not have tarnished.  With that sentiment, Sir, if I should ask my noble friend to go to the Court of Russia, and say, ’To be sure you have violated a treaty—­to be sure you have extinguished an independent state.  We have allowed this to be done.  You shall hear no threat of war.  We will not arm for the purpose.  We will admit that the state of Cracow is extinguished.  We will admit that her inhabitants are reduced to subjection.  The names of freedom and of independence to them are lost for ever.  But this we will do.  There is a claim of some thousand pounds which we can make against you, which we now pay, and which we will now throw upon your shoulders; and in that way we will revenge ourselves for your violation of treaties’—­we should be taking a part, we should be using language